The End of Evangelion

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Started 3 years ago by Colin
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Colin
Member

I remember watching this many years ago as a fansub, and all I could really remember from it was that it showed a little more of Yui, it showed Misato dying, Shinji masturbating, Asuka wrecking shop on some big lipped Evas, Ritsuko being shot, and then, a giant Rei coming out of the Earth while some faux gospel music plays. I always felt that I liked the ending from the series better than the films, but couldn't remember exactly why.

Well, after re-watching the movies, I have to say, that they're BAD! They're super strange and they don't really add anything to the story. I know this sounds harsh, but I have to think that I'm not the only one out there that feels this way.

Posted 3 years ago #
MoFoQ
Member

though I can't say I remember Shinji jerking off....(I remember him as being too timid to even do so)....I have to disagree that it was "bad".
It was...different yes.
there's so much symbolism in both the last few eps of the series and the movies (if anyone wants to borrow my R2 dvds of the movies...).
There's plenty of references to DesCarte, Freud, and many other philosophical and psychological masterpieces along with a few jabs at established religions.

That's one of the reasons (along with giant fighting robots and Rei and Asuka having big....hmmm....assets) why I liked the series and the movies.
Plus it wasn't afraid to kill off main characters (which is also why I like some of the CLAMP stories....and having rewatched Code Geass recently before I burned them on to DVD-Rs to free up some space...).

anyways...love the doggie. ;)

Posted 3 years ago #
Ann
Key Master

It happens in the very beginning when Shinji is shaking Asuka and her shirt opens.

IMO, hinting at a deeper meaning by throwing loads of haphazardly assembled symbols and perverse imagery at the screen while maintaining cryptic dialogue chock full of vague religious terminology just doesn't hold up to a well-written screenplay that integrates any such fragments in a sensible way. You expect continuity, logic, and characterization of some sort in any film unless the purpose is entirely artistic. There are a few bits that are good (ie. Misato's speech to Shinji before dying) but honestly, whoever was in charge really dropped the ball on this one and forgot that they were making a movie!

Don't get me wrong... the TV series is great and I really do like the series overall. There are some imperfections throughout and especially the ending could have been done MUCH better, but if you think about it, all these attempts to re-do the ending must not have lived up to anyone's expectations if they're changing it yet again for the new theatrical releases...

Posted 3 years ago #
MoFoQ
Member

dunno...maybe it's something that you have to think with a japanese mind.
I do admit, it is an extremely difficult series to translate and amazed that some companies even tried (haphazardly).

to me...it's not a re-doing of the ending...it's a continuation.
the series ending was more of a self-realization for Shinji.
the movie ending was more of a end-of-the-whole-f'ing-world sort.

I need to get the dvd's to watch the series again. it's been a while.

Posted 3 years ago #
ultramike
Member

i think the main problem is that the movie was so far removed from the beginning of the series -- the early episodes started with an above-average (but still relatively straightforward) girls+mecha fomula, occasionally bordering on teenage comedy. but, as the series progressed, the themes and overall tone became much darker and more abstract -- culminating in the infamous avant-garde "end of evangelion" movie. (our theory is that towards the end of the series the budget cuts unfortunately included hideaki anno's prozac prescription...)
i think the movie does bring up some interesting themes (i.e. are we better off being individuals, along with all the ugliness and unhappiness it brings? or would the world be a better place if everyone were homogenous and conflict-free by giving up their humanity?) i actually quite enjoyed this movie, but calling it "evangelion" is a bit of a misnomer. what fans wanted was closure to the storyline put forth by the original series, and while i found anno's freestyle meanderings on life, death, and humanity an interesting philosophical exercise, they gave no such sense of closure. understandably, many felt a bit cheated by these movies purporting to be "the end of evangelion". it's equivalent to reading a novel where partway through the story, out of nowhere the main characters suddenly get hit by a bus and die.
i don't know too much about the latest retcons though, but i'm usually wary whenever they exhume a series as legendary as eva.
so in conclusion, fat doggie is fat!

Posted 3 years ago #
MoFoQ
Member

same goes for Sopranos and its "controversial" ending as well.

Posted 3 years ago #
Colin
Member

My understanding is that the movies are not actually "alternate" endings. The movies serve to make extra money for Gainax and to show what happens between the second to last episode and the last episode. The ending is still the same, its just that we now see the events leading up to it.

I think Ann's points about the movies are pretty good. They sort of chucked lots of vague imagery at the screen and hoped people would find meaning in it. In actuality, it confused people so much that Gainax had to release a book just to explain everything! Why didn't they just make a movie that made sense in the first place! What good is it if you need a FAQ just to figure out what the heck you just watched!?

Oh, for a refresher, here is Shinji spanking his Shinji.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54bvdTANqrI

Posted 3 years ago #
MoFoQ
Member

A FAQ book = more ￥
Sure, there are examples of other stories that were more complex and yet made perfect sense.
Who knows what exactly motivated Gainax (aside from money)?

that's a big dane ;)

Posted 3 years ago #
ultramike
Member

i'm going to go out on a limb and disagree with you guys here :-)
i think gainax and anno could have easily decided to end the series in a more conventional way, but they simply chose not to. if it were really about making money, a "normal" movie/ending would have equated for more sales, merchandise, spinoff series, etc. but instead, they chose to END THE ENTIRE WORLD, effectively closing the door on any follow-ups to the evangelion story (and possibly milking more money out of the franchise as had been done with the endless gundam, macross, etc. sequels).
i would also argue that the movie itself is neither haphazard nor vague -- there is a very specific thesis guiding the movie (individuality vs. homogeneity), and even the notorious "shinji jackin' it" scene is part of illustrating that theme. i do agree that the film's meaning is not obvious from the first viewing, but i believe that all the pieces are there for the viewers to put together and that the message is consistent. the way i see it, "end of evangelion" is an exercise in putting hideaki anno's philosophies to screen as a pure-art film, and by masquerading as "the evangelion movie" it was able to reach a much wider audience than it would have otherwise (which is quite genius, actually). i'm pretty sure they knew there would be a massive backlash from the fanbase, but gainax had the temerity to do it anyways -- i respect the fact that they avoided the "easy" road.
i suppose my disclaimer is that i like "difficult" movies that rattle around in my head long after the ending credits roll, but to each their own :-)

Posted 3 years ago #
Ann
Key Master

ultramike - 7 hours ago »

if it were really about making money, a "normal" movie/ending would have equated for more sales, merchandise, spinoff series, etc. but instead, they chose to END THE ENTIRE WORLD, effectively closing the door on any follow-ups to the evangelion story (and possibly milking more money out of the franchise as had been done with the endless gundam, macross, etc. sequels).

Err, but what about the new Rebuild of Evangelion movies?

The first three movies will be an alternate retelling of the TV series, featuring new scenes, settings, backgrounds, characters, and newly available 3D CG technology, and the fourth film will present a completely new conclusion to the story. Another stated intention of this series is for it to be much more understandable and accessible to non-fans than the original TV series and movies were.

Show me the yen!

Posted 3 years ago #
ultramike
Member

i still maintain that the original vision of "end of evangelion" was subversively anti-commercial and intentionally so, and gainax had originally intended it to be the definitive ending to the series.
the only reason for the existence of these new "rebuild of evangelion" films is the backlash from the fans demanding a more "satisfying" ending. i highly doubt there was some master plan of "hey, let's make money by releasing 4 different endings!" retcons such as this happen because the creators realized after the fact that the story they wanted to tell did not mesh with the story the audiences wanted to hear. if anything, these new movies are an apology to the fans who expected a proper ending to the series with "end of eva" but were duped into watching anno's artistic digressions instead.
if money were the only motivating factor from the beginning, there's much easier and more profitable ways to do it than this awkward remake/retconning routine.

Posted 3 years ago #
Ann
Key Master

I do agree that Gainax and the creators of the series must have originally intended for the End of Eva movie to be the definitive series ending. I think the reason they didn't actually extend the series is because they had no ideas for how to continue it. I mean they sort of wrote themselves into a dead end. But I think the reason for the new theatrical releases (Rebuild) is clearly for love of YEN!

My personal opinion is that in nearly all cases and definitely in this case (it's Gainax, folks!), the primary goal of any studio project is to make money. Vision comes second, and after so many years (and many other successful money-making series) fan backlash from dissatisfied Eva fans is a non-issue. Plus it certainly is interesting to note that Anno recently founded his own animation studio in 2006. I mean, what better way to provide some capital for his new company than to resurrect his surest hit?

But of course, no one wants to admit their want of money as their primary driving force publicly, so alas, we will never know!

Posted 3 years ago #
Justin Fairchild
Member

Ann, your level-headed view of anime studios is refreshing. I agree with everything you say -- and yet I'd try and attend this upcoming Stanford Anime event if I wasn't scheduled to work.

For me Eva is spectacle, allegories wrapped up in metaphysics and religion and psychology that can't possibly gel into something cohesive... but all I have to do is take those "consistency and believability" glasses off and it's good fun. And sometimes I wonder if that's not what Gainax really intended... cause I certainly appreciate Nadia and Gurren-Lagann on similar levels.

Posted 3 years ago #
Ann
Key Master

Hey Justin, it's good to see you here stirring back up the controversy (and supporting me too)! :p

I read in some FAQs that staff interviews reveal the reasoning behind the religious references was more to create a sense of mystery than anything else, and the fact that they happen to be based on an actual religion was more or less because it was convenient. It really comes up all the time in anime since western religion and Christianity IS pretty mysterious to the Japanese, and whenever they pull a name out from the bible it probably sounds super cool to them (being not a standard English word/name). In the original Eva TV series I think it works pretty well... that is, they try very hard to explain the connections in some logical way, and so it serves as an added dimension to the "fighting boy in mecha... with cute girls!" anime story. I think the angst adds drama and the metaphysics adds to the sci-fi factor, so all around it makes for a pretty interesting show! It veers into being too much at the end for my tastes, but maybe the arty folk love it all the more for that.

For money or not, if they've improved on this new movie series and redone the ending bit so it makes more sense to me then I am all for it! Either way I don't mind "re-watching." I'm definitely planning on checking out the screening next Thursday... anyone else going?

Posted 3 years ago #
MoFoQ
Member

"cute girls"?
if it was just "cute", then anything by CLAMP would have made due.
it's more like "cute and 'well-formed/developed' in certain areas" :D

anyways, yea...western religion even if it's "western religion-esque" can stir up mystery and interest. Take a look at "Chaos; Head" for one.

In the 80's, it was Eastern things that drew attention.

Posted 3 years ago #
Sailor Moon
Member

wow!! And I thought eva was just a very interesting movie about what it means to be human and what whould happen if one day technology allows us to create someone similar to "god". Shinji was always wanting to belong somewhere,to be loved and be part of the group and now in the end he is alone... ;_;

(I guess it hit me particularly hard because in japan we have groups of friends and shinji always was looking to belong somehow)...

Posted 3 years ago #